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Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Пон лютого 09, 2009 1:37 am
Марко
Компанія серед західної преси за правильне написання географічної назви столиці України англійською мовою.

Петиція до The Economist: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Kyiv/

Деталі на: http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/ та http://www.CapitalOfUkraine.com/name/

:ugeek:

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Вів березня 17, 2009 6:27 pm
Марко
NY Times, ті що колись писали в IHT, що потрібно писати Kyiv, http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2006/10/19/us-go ... d-of-kiev/ далі пишуть назву нашої столиці неправильно.

Ось куди писати скарги:
> http://nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/hel ... ctory.html
* Arthur Sulzberger Jr., Chairman & Publisher: publisher@nytimes.com
* Scott H. Heekin-Canedy, President, General Manager: president@nytimes.com
* Clark Hoyt, who represents the readers: public@nytimes.com
* Martin Nisenholtz, the Sr. V.P. of Digital Operations: digitalsvp@nytimes.com

Editors:

Sir,

In the recent issue of NY Times your paper referred to the capital of Ukraine using phased-out spelling "Kiev", http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/world ... ine&st=cse

Instead, in English, the proper and the original spelling should be used, which is Kyiv, of course.

This has been already reviewed by Ukrainian and Western governments and recognised by the UN, the US, British and Australian governments and other authorities in English speaking countries.

A public petition to the Western media is signed by thousand of people, including your readers too, http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Kyiv/signatures.html

Whenever you arrive to Kyiv Boryspil International, you will never miss four big shining letters KYIV on the top of the airport building. When you drive further towards the city, you will be greeted by the board "Kyiv welcomes you" on the side of the speedway.

You can read more background details on http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/

I would like to use this opportunity and welcome you to visit our capital and see it for yourself. The face of Kyiv changes every day, except for its name.

Yours faithfully,

Mark


:ugeek:

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: П'ят березня 20, 2009 2:16 am
Марко
Пояснуємо і прояснюємо далі. Бо ще багато хто не знає. Пишіть їм всім.

Ось переписка з NY Times:

2009/3/19 Public/NYT/NYTIMES <public@nytimes.com>

Thanks again for your email. I have done some research and found out what the Times official stance is on the spelling Kyiv or Kiev.

This is from our standards and style guru:

as of now, our style remains KIEV, which is the way the word is listed in our preferred dictionary (Webster's New World College Dictionary) as well as three or four others i consulted. i think it's still the common spelling in english-language publications, and the most familiar to our readers.

these issues often arise with transliterations of names from other alphabets. there really is no "right" way; it's just a matter of convention.

in general, we don't try to be in the vanguard of usage changes like this. if and when "Kyiv" becomes the most widely used and recognized form among american english speakers, that would be the time for us to change our style.

I hope this helps clarify our position.

Sincerely,
Scott Garapolo

Office of the Public Editor
The New York Times

Note: The public editor's opinions are his own and do not represent those of The New York Times.


Subject: Re: Kyiv vs Kiev
To: Public/NYT/NYTIMES <public@nytimes.com>
Date: 2009/3/19

Dear Mr. Garapolo,

Your colleagues will be probably surprised to discover that IHT wrote about this issue already back in 2006:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/ ... apital.php

In fact, United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database says it is Kyiv (in English): http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/ ... enDocument

In English, Kyiv is used in all the official documents issued by the Ukrainian government, the US government, British and Australians.

If you visit the city, you will only see Kyiv, right from the Boryspil Airport down to the very city centre.

By writing Kiev, your paper put itself in a silly situation showing your journalists do not know the name of the city.

Pekin is now Beijing, Burma is now Myanmar, Kiev is Kyiv. This is the modern English.

You may wish to pass the above information to your guru as well as the other links and evidences on http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/:

http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/2006/10/20/us-be ... v-as-kyiv/
http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/2006/10/19/us-go ... d-of-kiev/

Let me remind you, that I do not act as an individual but represent thousand of those who signed the petition: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Kyiv/signatures.html

It is they who ask you politely to write the name of the capital of Ukraine as Kyiv, not Kiev.

Thank you very much indeed.

Mark


:ugeek:

Prospect Magazine

ПовідомленняДодано: Пон березня 23, 2009 11:23 am
Марко
Ще одна британська гезета, що потребує просвіти. Вони досі неправильно пишуть Київ англійською:

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/sear ... tSearch=GO

Пишіть редектору:

А також посилайте копії:

:ugeek:

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Вів березня 24, 2009 4:40 am
Лариса
Написала була редактору "World In" пану Daniel Franklin, а він переслав мії запит іншим журналістам.

Ось відповідь якогось пихатого Edward Lucas, котрого довелось ставити на місце.

Якщо маєте натхнення, то пишіть їм на:
* Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
* Johnny Grimond <JohnnyGrimond@economist.com>
* Daniel Franklin <danielfranklin@economist.com>

або телефонуйте Едварду +447770380791

Ось перестрілка:

From: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Date: 2009/3/23
Subject: From Edward Lucas
Cc: Johnny Grimond <JohnnyGrimond@economist.com>

Thanks for your letter. The subject you raise is hotly debated at The Economist. The majority feeling is that until we write Warszawa, Roma and Beograd for those capital cities it would be eccentric to write Kiev Ukrainian-style as Kyiv or Ky'iv. The English usage is quite well established while there are no universally agreed rules for Ukrainian-English transliteration.

Some of my colleagues also feel that the energy spent campaigning on the relatively trivial issue of orthography might be better used in dealing with your country's severe economic and political problems.

I doubt this answer will satisfy you, but please be assured that the question is under regular review.

By the way, I don't see any campaign at this end to stop the use of "Londres" (French) or Londra or Londyn.

Regards
Edward Lucas
CEE Correspondent

(Automated message) If this seems terse to the point of rudeness, sorry; it was typed on a tiny keyboard. My phone no is +447770380791
This e-mail may contain confidential material. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies. It may also contain personal views which are not the views of The Economist Group. We may monitor e-mail to and from our network.

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Date: 2009/3/23
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas
To: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Cc: Daniel Franklin <danielfranklin@economist.com>

Dear Mr. Lucas,

Although, I find your comments of very low quality, I will continue our discussion. From what I read on forums, your other colleagues at The Economist never changed the subject, and never diverted from it into the political area. In the first row, it is not civilised. Then not very professional either.

In English, the proper and the original spelling should be used, which is Kyiv, of course.

For your information: this has been already reviewed by Ukrainian and Western governments and recognised by the UN, the US, British and Australian governments and other authorities in English speaking countries.

Your colleagues will be probably surprised to discover that IHT wrote about this issue already back in 2006:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/ ... apital.php

In fact, United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database says it is Kyiv (in English): http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/ ... enDocument

This is the ultimate body that set the names of the city.

You can read more background details, evidences, and examples on http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/

In English, Kyiv is used in all the official documents issued by the Ukrainian government, the US government, British and Australians.

By writing Kiev, your paper put itself in a silly situation showing your journalists do not know the name of the city.

Pekin is now Beijing, Burma is now Myanmar, Kiev is Kyiv. This is the modern English.

If you consider it a small change, then would you just follow the guidelines? The Economist Style Guide insist on adopting the new name.

For many of Ukrainians it is a matter of principal, we rebrand our country slowly, but rightly. You may help too.

Thousands have signed the petition to your paper to emphasise this change: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Kyiv/signatures.html

It is they who ask you politely to write the name of the capital of Ukraine as Kyiv, not Kiev.

Thank you very much indeed for your co-operation.


From: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Date: 2009/3/23
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas

I am sorry you don't like the answer. As I have tried to explain, it is a controversial subject inside the Economist. Some of us are in favour of a change.

Regards
EL
(Automated message) If this seems terse to the point of rudeness, sorry; it was typed on a tiny keyboard. My phone no is +447770380791


Date: 2009/3/24
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas
To: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Cc: DanielFranklin@economist.com

Dear Mr Lucas,

You may study the subject deeply, by reading all the comments on:
* http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Kyiv/signatures.html
* http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic ... 6013004059
* then exhausting source of material on http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/

Then also visit the city for yourself. As far as English is concerned, it is Kyiv. I am talking neither Ukrainian, nor Russian, nor French. Just plain vanila modern English.

I suggest your journalists stop playing fools and read its own style guide and learn a bit of respect towards your readers.

With best regards,
Larysa

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Вів березня 24, 2009 9:35 pm
Марко
Розмовляти з їхнім генеральним директором куди приємніше. Напевно він у них за доброго копа. Я пам'ятаю сам редактор та й журналісти просто кидаються коли їх за Київ запитати. Невже так важко змінити одну назву, особливо якщо такі настрої вже є в колективі і тему прожовано сотню разів?

Date: 2009/3/23
Subject: Re: Capital of Ukraine
To: andrewrashbass@economist.com
Cc: johnmicklethwait@economist.com

Dear Mr Rashbass,

Coming back to the Kyiv topic:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic ... 6013004059

If your paper is talking about wide use, please also consider the following:

Guardian writes Kyiv:
http://browse.guardian.co.uk/search?sea ... ian=Search

Maybe, it is that their journalists are into football, and travel to the city more often.

The name of the famous club is Dynamo Kyiv, isn't it? Not Dynamo Kiev.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Dynamo_Kyiv

You simply cannot misspell the name.

Since last time we communicated, few more hundred people signed the petition:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Kyiv/signatures.html

Your editors might be interested in reading the comments.

Thank you very much indeed for your understanding and consideration.

With best regards,
Mark


From: Andrew Rashbass <andrewrashbass@economist.com>
Date: 2009/3/23
Subject: Re: Capital of Ukraine
Cc: John Micklethwait <JohnMicklethwait@economist.com>

Dear Mark

Thanks for the Guardian link.

I am sure John will take all of this information into consideration when he next updates his guidance to the journalists on these sorts of issues.

Best wishes

Andrew

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Rashbass
Chief Executive
The Economist Group
http://www.economistgroup.com
mailto:andrewrashbass@economist.com
Tel: +44 (0)20 7830 7120


:ugeek:

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Сер березня 25, 2009 3:28 am
Лариса
Нарешті зрозуміло, хто в Економісті покриває Східну Європу. Це таки той пан Едвард Лукас.

По інтонації його писанини він собі лестить тим що "великий" спеціаліст в питаннях всього регіону, бо нашкрабав якусь книгу про Кремлін. Хоча покриваючи стільки країн, він фізично неспроможній охопити навідь відсотка всього того що відбувається в Україні. То якого дідька тоді викаблучується? Питала про нього у знайомих - кажуть він зазнайко і не вартий уваги. Такий собі щур-журналіст.

Хто хоче обламати йому роги, ось його дані.

Профайл Edward Lucas:
* Job title: Central and Eastern Europe correspondent
* http://www.economist.com/mediadirectory ... alistID=62
* Блоги: http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/ та http://www.edwardlucas.com/
* Office: +44 (0)20 7576 1180
* Mobile: +44 (0)7770 380791
* E-mail: EdwardLucas@economist.com

A oсь подальша переписка з паном Едвардом:

From: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Date: 2009/3/24
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas

I am familiar with these sites. As I keep telling you, it is hotly debated inside the Economist. Try reading between the lines of what I am telling you. Try looking at my book or my own website.

Regards
EL

(Automated message) If this seems terse to the point of rudeness, sorry; it was typed on a tiny keyboard. My phone no is +447770380791


Date: 2009/3/24
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas
To: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>

Dear Mr Lucas,

I know it is discussed within The Economist. I also know quite few people writing to The Economist about this issue. We are teaming up and we will not give up.

Here are few strong arguments from our side:

* Ukrainian government insists on Kyiv spelling
* US government issued a directive to write Kyiv
* United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database (the ultimate body on geographical names) says it is Kyiv
* English speaking government worldwide switched to Kyiv spelling
* The name of the famous football club is Dynamo Kyiv
* Many papers, e.g., British The Guardian, are already writing Kyiv
* All major Canadian media already use the spelling of Kyiv

To be honest with you, I have not heard any strong counterargument from your paper.

The only man to stand for a discussion was your CEO, Mr Rashbass. The other just run away and blame it on Ukrainians. It is our city, our grandparents gave it a name. The name was stolen for a while, but now it is back. It is up to us as well as up to the official bodies of this world to decide how to spell it in English. They all say Kyiv.

Give me the true reason why your paper is among those few that still resist the change keep on writing Kiev?

You all look like stubborn children without any strong argument, I can only laugh and ask you again: "why" are you resisting this trivial change asked by our times?

With best regards,
Larysa


Date: 2009/3/24
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas
To: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>

Dear Mr Lucas,

Talking about your book and your side of the story:

Even your style guide insists on the modern spelling “… But follow local practice when a country expressly changes its name, or the names of rivers, towns, etc, within it. Thus Almaty not Alma Ata; …”. You prefer to write Moldova, Belarus, Chisinau instead of Soviet era names Moldavia, Byelorussia, Kishenev, saying nothing about Myanmar versus Burma and Beijing versus Peking.

It is all written in your paper, on your web-site. It is either you believe in what you are writing or you are direct.ly and blunt.ly telling people you are introducing double standards.

I am looking forward to hear more insights on your story.

With best regards,
Larysa


From: Edward Lucas <edwardlucas@economist.com>
Date: 2009/3/24
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas

I wish you would read between the lines of what I am writing to you. Read my book. Look at my website

Regards
Edward Lucas

Edward Lucas
Deputy Editor, International Section
Central and Eastern Europe correspondent
The Economist
25 St James St
London SW1A 1HG

http://economist.com/mediadirectory/lis ... alistID=62
edwardlucas.blogspot.com

to subscribe to my weekly mailing, send an e-mail to edwardlucas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

+44 207 576 1180 (direct)
+44 7770 380 791 (mobile)
skype: edwardlucas


From: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Date: 2009/3/24
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas

R-e-a-d M-Y b-o-o-k. (Hint: google my name)

Or try googling <site:edwardlucas.blogspot.com kyiv>
(Automated message) If this seems terse to the point of rudeness, sorry; it was typed on a tiny keyboard. My phone no is +447770380791


Date: 2009/3/25
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas
To: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>

Dear Mr Lukas,

I final.ly got your point, so you wrote some book and you think you are a big specialist on Central and Eastern Europe. Certain.ly the scope of your work is impressive. I browse through your blog. You do write a lot indeed.

As to Ukraine, I have big doubts your sources are enough. I haven't seen much work covering the country. Neither it is deep comparing to other insiders I am in touch with.

You may wish to network more within Ukrainians in the City of London, Kyiv, and other places in Ukraine to form some solid picture on the country. Without that, I rather find you a weak authority on the matter.

You may go out and preach on Kremlin and Russia, but Ukraine is the other thing. Simply by specialising on Russia, you can not write about political life of Budapest. Eastern Europe did change a lot, there are already two new generations that grew without Soviet propaganda. Their world is different.

If you would ever visit Kyiv, you would not miss four big shining letters on the top of Boryspil Airport building: KYIV. Further down the motorway: "Kyiv welcomes you!" and then sure.ly "Welcome to Kyiv!". Just book a flight and see it for yourself. You are welcome indeed.

With best regards,
Larysa


Date: 2009/3/25
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas
To: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>

Dear Mr Lukas,

I final.ly got your point, so you wrote some book and you think you are a big specialist on Central and Eastern Europe. Certain.ly the scope of your work is impressive. I browse through your blog. You do write a lot indeed.

As to Ukraine, I have big doubts your sources are enough. I haven't seen much work covering the country. Neither it is deep comparing to other insiders I am in touch with.

You may wish to network more within Ukrainians in the City of London, Kyiv, and other places in Ukraine to form some solid picture on the country. Without that, I rather find you a weak authority on the matter.

You may go out and preach on Kremlin and Russia, but Ukraine is the other thing. Simply by specialising on Russia, you can not write about political life of Budapest. Eastern Europe did change a lot, there are already two new generations that grew without Soviet propaganda. Their world is different.

If you would ever visit Kyiv, you would not miss four big shining letters on the top of Boryspil Airport building: KYIV. Further down the motorway: "Kyiv welcomes you!" and then sure.ly "Welcome to Kyiv!". Just book a flight and see it for yourself. You are welcome indeed.

With best regards,
Larysa


From: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Date: 2009/3/25
Subject: Re: From Edward Lucas

Thank you. Now try reading my book. Rgds EL
(Automated message) If this seems terse to the point of rudeness, sorry; it was typed on a tiny keyboard. My phone no is +447770380791

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Сер квітня 01, 2009 2:11 am
Kyivite
Так вони і надалі пишуть... хами: http://www.economist.com/books/PrinterF ... d=13361080

Ось відправила два факси і ще раз електронною поштою. Було б непогано якби сам пан Пінчук їм теж зателефонував і обурився. Може б це їх перегонало.

To:
Editor
The Economist
25 St James’s Street
London SW1A 1HG

Fascimile: +44 20 7839 4092, +44 8456 760050

E-mail: letters@economist.com

Date: 31st of March 2009


Sir,

In your article “Contemporary art in Russia” (March 26th 2009), you have misspelled, once again, the name of the capital of Ukraine.

You were writing about Mr Pinchuk’s Art Centre in Kiev, but would you ever visit it, or at least go to its English web-site http://pinchukartcentre.org/en/how_to_find_us - you would see it is in Kyiv!

Such a shame your paper is writing about things it has never seen in real life, just heard of.

As Mr Pinchuk’s Art Centre is in Kyiv, I would kindly ask you to tell your journalist to correct it in your future issues.

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Суб квітня 11, 2009 1:27 am
Марко
Лист, який відправлено українським працівникам Financial Times Христині, Юрію та Роману:

Dear Chrystia, Yuri, and Roman,

I represent about thousand Kyiv supporters, who signed the petition to the Western media to stop referring to the capital of Ukraine as Kiev and to use the modern and correct spelling in English language, which is Kyiv of course.

First of all let me mention that I don't ask you to hammer the idea through within your office, but as an Ukrainian, to consider important and convincing evidences listed below and to bring them through whenever possible to your colleagues.

Financial Times was asked many times to implement the change, but unlike The Guardians et al, it still uses the misspelled name.

Strong arguments in favour of Kyiv spelling in English language are as follows:
* Ukrainian government insists on Kyiv spelling
* US government issued a directive to write Kyiv
* United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database (the ultimate body on geographical names) approved it as Kyiv
* Major English speaking government worldwide switched to Kyiv spelling
* Many papers, e.g., British The Guardian, are already writing Kyiv
* All major Canadian media already use the spelling of Kyiv
* CIA refers to the city as Kyiv
* The name of the famous football club is Dynamo Kyiv
* And many more evidences and supporting documents can be found on Kyiv.Of-Cour.se

By writing Kiev, Financial Times erroneously confuses many of its reader who actual.ly visited the city and saw its name in English as Kyiv, everywhere, from Boryspil airport down to the Old Town.

If you have any questions regarding the evidences and official position of various authorities, do not hesitate to call me on +447920162000 or to reply to this e-mail to seek further explanation.

With best regards / shanuymosya,
Markiyan


Annexes

Link to the site with comprehensive list of all found evidences:
* http://Kyiv.Of-Cour.se/

Link to the petition:
* http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Kyiv/signatures.html

Discussion with Financial Times on Facebook:
* http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/topic ... topic=6738


Сподіваюсь, що вони щось в цьому напрямку зроблять і ми скоро побачимо така миле для нас слово Kyiv.

:ugeek:

Re: Kyiv

ПовідомленняДодано: Суб квітня 11, 2009 2:44 am
Марко
Щодо Financial Times, то ось список людей яких потрібно переконувати, власне вони приймають рішення щодо внутрішніх правил стилістики, і їх відповідні електронні адреси:


:ugeek: