Kyiv

Газети, журнали, видавництва

Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Вів жовтня 20, 2009 3:02 pm

Штурмуємо Економіст далі:

To: John Peet <johnpeet@economist.com>
Cc: Andrew Rashbass <AndrewRashbass@economist.com>, johnmicklethwait@economist.com
Date: 2009/10/20
Subject: Re: Kyiv

Dear Mr Peet,

FYI, after about one year of writing, calling, lobbying, the world’s biggest social community Facebook and, according to Alexa’s rankings, the world’s second popular web site, finally corrected the spelling of Kyiv. They no longer display it as Kiev.

Unlike it was in the case with Twitter, the change was not that swift, and yet, Facebook is much bigger organisation, so one had to adjust for the company bureaucracy.

As for now, you have one less argument for the wrong spelling.

I welcome you to join our club of modern Ukraine and leave the Soviet past behind.

With best regards,

Mark


P.S. original press-release:
http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2009/10/20/faceb ... -spelling/


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Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Суб грудня 19, 2009 1:35 pm

Відізвався пан Лукас, який продовжив традицію газети, просто відмовився змінювати написання без пояснень. Та і взагалі порадив читати інші газети. Ось так вони про своїх читачів дбають.

2009/12/19 Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>

Dear Mr Kусhmа

We don't write "Warszawa" or "Moskva". We don't mind the French writing about "Londres". No reason to get that hung up about the K-town.

Best regards,
Edward Lucas
Eastern Europe correspondent
I am sorry if this message reads terse.ly; I am typing it on a tiny keyboard. My phone number is +44 7770 380791

...

I appreciate the strength of feeling on this issue but I doubt we will change our approach. The fact that the city is called Kіеv in Russian is beside the point. It is called Kіеv in English, like Rome is not Roma and Turin is not Torino. The Italians can live with this. I would respectfully suggest that the energy that you devote to orthographical quibbles be devoted to the rather more pressing question of saving your country's economy, and its independence.

Regards
EL
I am sorry if this message reads tersely; I am typing it on a tiny keyboard. My phone number is +44 7770 380791

...

I don't mind my name (Lucas in English) being spelled "Lukas" in Ukrainian, as in your recent missive. So you shouldn't mind Kіеv's English spelling.

I am glad that the days in which governments told newspapers what to write and how to write are gone in your country. Contrary to your suggestion, it is entirely our business how we spell things. If you don't like it, you can read the Kyiv Post.

Finally, your preposterous suggestion that we are furthering a hidden pro-Russian agenda suggests that you don't read it.

Regards
EL
I am sorry if this message reads tersely; I am typing it on a tiny keyboard. My phone number is +44 7770 380791


Dear Mr Lucas,

You are very right, I am not reading The Economist. I am listening to it on my ipod.

Your writing is so illogical. Why did you forget to switch to Kyiv when your paper adopted Moldova, Belarus, Chisinau, Almaty and other native names? You never answered this question. Using Russian spellings of Ukrainian cities of Kyiv and Lviv does not help your arguments.

A task of a good journalist is to reflect the facts, not to skew them. Please visit Kyiv and show me a sign in English mentioning other spelling, but Kyiv. Feel free to perform field studies and do bean counting. Then, go on, write Dinamo Kiev, instead of Dynamo Kyiv, and everyone will tell you never watch a football match.

Please do not shift the focus of this discussion. You only prove that you have no arguments. Try to convince me on the language level and please do not involve other city names that do not want to change their spelling and please refrain from politics. We are discussing here English spellings. It is Kyiv in English and Kiev in French. Once again, I will refer you the U.N. database of geographical names: http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/ ... enDocument

Have a look on all modern English maps, it is Kyiv there.

We can go for ages. I have provided you number of facts that it is Kyiv in English. You failed to come with a single one. Hence I reserve every right to tell that you are sympathising the Russian lobby when it comes to the geographical names. I also spread a word in Ukraine that your paper is very unfair towards Ukrainians as you are constantly misspelling the names of their cities. No wonder your paper is not popular in the country.

As you do not care about your readers and tell them to go to other papers, well, one day they will leave indeed.

Be careful what you are wishing for.


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Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Суб грудня 19, 2009 3:43 pm

Єдиний аргумент, це що на Ґуґлі там Кієва багато, але нехай подивляться на тренд. За декілька років все буде по іншому. Для чого палки в колеса вставляти?

Dear Mr Lucas,

You cover the whole Eastern Europe. I wonder why can't you just answer one
simple question:

""" Why did your paper adopted Moldova, Belarus, Chisinau, Almaty and other
native names but failed on Kyiv? """

Why? Please tell me. Is this that difficult to provide any reasonable
explanation? Or is there none?

Well, take your time and think during the Christmas, then write me back in
2010.

I wish you happy contemplating indeed.


2009/12/19 Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>

Kiev is famous already in English. The others aren't. Google Kiev and youy get 13m hits. Kyiv gets 4m. When that changes, perhaps we will.

Regards
EL
I am sorry if this message reads tersely; I am typing it on a tiny keyboard. My phone number is +44 7770 380791


Dear Mr Lucas,

It is very cordial that you are now trying to buy Ukrainians that they are more popular than Kazakhs or Byelorussians. That might be a matter of numbers too. So how did you measure words' popularity?

The fact that The Economist is relying on Google is very surprising. Go to google.com and type "french military victories" then press "i am feeling lucky" ;) What a great linguistic tool indeed.

By the way, the historic trend on Google shows that Kyiv is catching up. Just a year ago, the ratio was 11:1, now it is 13:4. Another good argument for your paper to consider.

Once again, your arguments are not convincing at all after your lately adoptions of Pekin, Myanmar, Mumbai... How do you explain these changes?

With all official media writing Kyiv in English, Kyiv it is indeed. By writing Kiev, your paper certain.ly loses its top position.

So, please, use proper and modern English names, not some outdated Soviet rudiments when referring to Ukrainian geographical names.

Herewith, my best regards


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Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Нед грудня 20, 2009 6:46 pm

Відізвався і необачний пан Піт. І одразу попалився. Сам заприсягся, що не буде писати правильно Київ, а його колега, у тому ж номері це зробив. Що зайвий раз доказує що в них там балаган і пан Піт просто впертий і нелогічний у своїх словах і вчинках.

From: John Peet <johnpeet@economist.com>
Date: 2009/12/19

Dear Mr Kусhmа

I am not going to join in this absurd correspondence yet again. You have
seen my perfectly clear explanation given many weeks ago to your fellow
lobbyist from the Kyiv Post. You have never tried to answer the
rationale of our printed style book on this subject, nor to explain why
the BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, Times, Daily Telegraph, Time,
Newsweek, Reuter's - to name just a few - all use the spelling Kіеv. The
last time I checked the Guardian did too, contrary to your assertion.

A year or two ago, after my last meeting with Yulia Tymoshenko and
others, I might have been inclined to reconsider this issue. But the
incessant, silly and often offensive e-mails that we have received from
you and some of your colleagues this year have now finally made my mind
up for good. During my editorship of the European edition we will stick
to Kіеv.

John Peet




To: John Peet <johnpeet@economist.com>
Cc: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>, Andrew Rashbass <AndrewRashbass@economist.com>, Caroline Carter <CarolineCarter@economist.com>, Daniel Franklin <DanielFranklin@economist.com>, John Micklethwait <JohnMicklethwait@economist.com>, Johnny Grimond <JohnnyGrimond@economist.com>, Letters to the Editor <letters@economist.com>, Sheila Allen <SheilaAllen@economist.com>
Date: 2009/12/20
Subject: Re: Errata


Dear Mr Peet,

Now I don't know whom should I address within The Economist. In this Christmas edition your paper was writing both Kiev and Kyiv. Sorry, I did not get until the end of the issue when I wrote my previous letter.

So, in the Christmas section, [ name.ly in "Hi there" http://www.economist.com/world/internat ... d=15108779 ], The Economist refers to the city as Kyiv:

""" “We suspect that this is because she has been well brought up in Kyiv,” he says, referring to the Ukrainian capital. """

Please don't take my tone as offensive, still I have enjoyed reading the Christmas section more than the European one.

I will answer your question, and I expect that out of courtesy and politeness, you will also answer the question I asked you many times before, but only saw the focus shifted to completely irrelevant topics. Let us stay on the track when discussing the name of the capital of Ukraine in English language.

Kyiv wise, we (the whole world) are in a transitional period. Some people did change, some are changing, some are lagging behind. As we have discussed it with Mr Lucas, there is a positive trend that Kyiv spelling is catching up. Ask Mr Lucas, he knows all the arguments.

Take Facebook and Twitter, two companies with hundred million users. They did not look at each other when I asked them the very same question about Kyiv [1, 2]. They did not count how many people did write Kiev or Kyiv in past. They saw a country of some 45 million people asking politely for a change, thus they have honoured the request. They considered the facts, did their field studies for a months or two and concluded that, today, on the official level, Kyiv is the modern spelling of the capital of Ukraine. In English language at least.

I guess, in case of The Economist, this discussion goes for a decade because people like you never ever tried to listen to the other side but just refused any sort of healthy dialogue and never considered a possibility to change.

To answer your question on why Financial Times is still writing it the old way. Because there, like within The Economists, they still have "internal discussions". There are few guys on the top of organisation that block it. Please ask them why they do it. I do not know. They never answered the question.

Chrystia Freeland, Yuri Bender, Roman Olearchyk, and many others try to write Kyiv. I don't know who is blocking. Hugh Carnegy and Stefan Wagstyl pretend to take the neutral position. Frankly, I do not read FT that often, so I am following on what is going on there Kyiv wise from my other City colleagues.

In any case, many journalists and editors favour Kyiv. Even your paper writes it occasionally. Somehow those who know very little about the matter do not listen to the logical arguments and facts and do not want to change. Just so very bureaucratic if you ask me. Ping-ponging the issue will not solve it.

Now, there is a question I want you to answer. Why did you adopt Moldova, Belarus, Chisinau, Almaty ... but not Kyiv? Why Beijing, Myanmar, Mumbai, but not Kyiv? Why did many organisation listen and changed?

Here is the map of Ukraine published by the U.N. [ http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/ma ... kraine.pdf ] It says Kyiv. It is Kyiv on all modern English maps. It is Kyiv indeed. What is you personal stand of not to change? I have an impression that you like to trade few more horses with people like Ms Tymoshenko and Mr Putin.

Personally, I do not want to offend you Mr Peet, but every time you write Kiev, it hurts your readers. Consider it next time your paper misspells the Ukrainian geographical names again. Expect follow-up letters, or just adopt the modern name. Like The Economist Christmas section did. You see, it is very easy and doesn't take much of unnecessary resistance.

I wish you all very well for 2010. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year indeed.

Herewith, my best regards,
Маrk Kусhmа

References:
[1] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2009/10/20/faceb ... -spelling/
[2] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2009/06/27/letter-to-twitter/


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Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Lidia » Пон грудня 21, 2009 12:22 am

На жаль, відповідь пана Піт тільки стверджує, що грубий і наглий підхід з боку наших лобістів тільке викликує гнів, а не розуміння і позитивні результати! Наша робота--спокійно, послідовно доводити нашу правоту, а не ображати, загрожувати або по-іншому бути грубими. :!:
Lidia
 
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З нами з: Нед грудня 20, 2009 11:53 pm

Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Суб грудня 26, 2009 10:31 pm

Пан Піт себе сам по хамськи повів з самого початку коли він втрутився у цю переписку. Він не вислухав іншої точки зору і корчить зі себе не знати кого, хто думає, що може вирішувати за весь світ.

Пан Піт один. Українців - мільйони. У нього немає інших шансів ніж попуститися, або буде розгрібати тисячі листів і факсів.

Пан Піт не любить змін, зневажає думку інших і поводить себе по-дитячому пихато. Але ми будемо йому писати, бо Київ - це серце України.


From: John Peet <johnpeet@economist.com>
Date: 2009/12/21
Subject: Re: Errata

My dear My Kусhmа,

I am the European editor, I have been for six years now, I was in Kiev
for the Orange Revolution in November-December 2004, I have been back
twice since then and I alone will decide on our spelling. There is
absolutely no point addressing anybody else here. You have complained to
me and to others here so many times and in such an aggressive manner
that, as I say, I have decided to stick with Kіev for at least ten years
and quite possibly for ever.

I am sorry, but your lobbying has been utterly and wholly
counterproductive. I once had some sympathy for your point of view, but
your tedious and offensive lobbying has lost it completely. I will no
longer open your e-mails or letters, or reply to them, and I will no
longer even consider changing our spelling. I cannot think of a less
effective campaign than the one that you and your colleagues have been
waging so offensively for so many years now. Perhaps this will encourage
you to desist. You obviously have no idea of how to communicate with
another human being.

John Peet
Europe Editor




To: John Peet <johnpeet@economist.com>
Cc: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>, Andrew Rashbass <AndrewRashbass@economist.com>, Caroline Carter <CarolineCarter@economist.com>, Daniel Franklin <DanielFranklin@economist.com>, John Micklethwait <JohnMicklethwait@economist.com>, Johnny Grimond <JohnnyGrimond@economist.com>, Letters to the Editor <letters@economist.com>, Sheila Allen <SheilaAllen@economist.com>
Date: 2009/12/26
Subject: Re: Errata

Dear Mr Peet,

Your unexplained denial to use the modern spelling of the capital of Ukraine reminds me of persistent attacks of one country on another, regarding the latter's name. And yet your European section in The Economist spells it correctly, Macedonia.

I am glad that other journalists at The Economist do think differently when it goes about Ukrainian geographical names. In 2009 you wrote Kyiv properly three times already and I personally thanked the paper each time [1, 2, 3]. While I am trying to discuss this matter with you, you Mr Peet are not answering the question but simply are insisting on your right to be the sole decision maker.

Let me remind that The Economist did not address yet the public petition signed by thousands people [4]. The paper copy is with the chief editor already for about a year. Please do not shift the discussions of great matters to the personal level of your preferences.

The only way to stop these letters is to adopt the modern name of Kyiv completely and not to puzzle your readers by interchangeably using the old spellings of Kiеv and the lately restored Kyiv.

Until then, expect those thousands who signed the petition and millions of other Ukrainians to express their dissatisfaction with your paper's writing. It goes about the image of the big European city and the biggest European country, by the area at least. Your pure denial will only lead to more letters and more actions.

I welcome you to read the history, the sources, and some of the articles in The Economist, which do after all you say, spell Kyiv properly.

Herewith, my regards,
Маrk Kусhmа


References:

[1] 8th of January 2009, The Economist print edition, International - Libel tourism - Writ large - Are English courts stifling free speech around the world? - http://www.economist.com/world/internat ... d=12903058

[2] 27th of August 2009, Economist.com, Europe - Europe.view - Sticks and stones - Russia needs to play nice - http://www.economist.com/world/europe/P ... d=14299813

[3] 17th of December 2009, The Economist print edition, World International - Christmas Specials - Politeness - Hi there - Life is getting friendlier but less interesting. Blame technology, globalisation and feminism - http://www.economist.com/world/internat ... d=15108779

[4] http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/kyiv/index.html



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З нами з: Нед лютого 08, 2009 11:30 pm

Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Чет січня 07, 2010 1:26 am

Коротенька переписка з паном Лукасом щодо посилання на Ґуґл:

Subject: Googling
Date: 2010/1/6

Dear Mr Lucas,

I just read your article in Ukrainian Tyzhden. Indeed, thank you very much indeed for sharing your thoughts. You should be coming to Ukraine more often, I think you will, as things get more electric towards the end of the month.

Remember, Kyiv is always welcoming you. You won't miss those four big shiny letters on top of Boryspil airport.

As to your argument of using Google, please see some "great" examples on the following page: http://reflectionof.me/bizarre-google-s ... uggestions

Happy googling indeed ;)

With best regards,
Mark




From: Edward Lucas <EdwardLucas@economist.com>
Subject: Re: Googling
Date: 2010/1/6


thanks, I don't actually cover Ukraine. That's our Moscow bureau chief's
patch. When I was his predecessor I visited Kіev almost every month, for
four years. He comes there often too

regards
EL

Edward Lucas
Deputy Editor, International Section
Central and Eastern Europe correspondent
The Economist
25 St James St
London SW1A 1HG

http://economist.com/mediadirectory/lis ... alistID=62
edwardlucas.blogspot.com

to subscribe to my weekly mailing, send an e-mail to
edwardlucas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

+44 207 576 1180 (direct)
+44 7770 380 791 (mobile)
skype: edwardlucas


Ще одне підтвердження того, що Економіст бере інформацію про Україну з Москви. Треба братися і за східних журналістів виходить, а не лише за західних.

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Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Суб січня 23, 2010 1:09 am

Спобуємо підколити їх у їх же стилі:

Sir,

Another correction of the Ukrainian geographical names. Hardly anyone ever wrote it Kolomiya. Kolomyya would be your best guess.

I don't want to accuse anyone, but your journalists seem to misspell the Ukrainian names the Russian way. Would you please mind misspelling them at least the English way?

Thank you.


Sir,

On the previous note, let me also mention that the name of the Chairman of the Parliament of Ukraine is spelled as Volodymyr Lytvyn, not Vladimir Litvin.

I suggest The Economist's journalists obtain information directly from the source, not via Moscow newspapers.

Thank you very much indeed for your understanding.


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Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Пон лютого 01, 2010 11:51 pm

Півтора роки переписки і дискусій, не пішли на марне. Financial Times таки написали і Львів і Київ правильно. Алелуя!


Dear Mr Carnegy,

It the name of thousands of FT readers who signed the petition on Kyiv spelling [1, 2, 3] I would like to thank you and your colleagues for hearing the voice and adopting the modern English spelling of the capital of Ukraine [3].

I personally welcome you to Kyiv, which despite all political turmoil, blooms and becomes only better every day. Be our guest and a cosy dinner with borshch etcetera is on us.

Sincerely yours,
Mаrk Kусhmа


References:
[1] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/petition/
[2] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2008/08/22/lette ... economist/
[3] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2009/12/29/make- ... ork-times/
[4] http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ace65f08-0cf9 ... 511c8.html


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Re: Kyiv

Повідомлення Марко » Вів лютого 02, 2010 12:03 am

Отже треба далі штурмувати Економіста і пана Піта.

Dear Mr Peet,

It took me a while to tackle your FT question, but for your information, attached is the article from the yesterday's paper [1]:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ace65f08-0cf9 ... 511c8.html

Both Lviv and Kyiv have made it into the modern English. I welcome you to consider this change too.

Thousands those signed [2, 3, 4] will thank you indeed.

Sincerely yours,
Mаrk Kусhmа

References:

[1] http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ace65f08-0cf9 ... 511c8.html
[2] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/petition/
[3] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2008/08/22/lette ... economist/
[4] http://kyiv.of-cour.se/2009/12/29/make- ... ork-times/



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